Royal Army Chaplains Dept Cap Badge

[Royal]

Hi

Can anyone please tell me if this badge is WW1 or WW2 please.

It has was looks to be a blue enamel centre. The outer cross is a seperate piece.

Many thanks

Chris

[Sepoy]

The WWI version of the Chaplain's badge is a blackened square "Maltese" style cross surmounted by a King's Crown.

Hope this helps

Sepoy

[Staffsyeoman]

The one Chris has is an extremely battered silver, gilt and enamel pre-1953 officer's No.1 dress hat badge. Mosrt likely post-WW2. Sepoy's is the correct pattern for WW1

[headgardener]

Juast wanted to add that Sepoy's pic shows the 'standard' pattern of cap-badge worn by the overwhelming majority of chaplains during WW1, but there was also a Jewish pattern (a star of David), and I'd imagine that there would have been other patterns for other non-christian, or possibly non-conformist, chaplains. I know that RC and United Board chaplains wore this badge, but some other non-conformist organizations had representatives in the ACD; the Salvation Army, for example. I wonder if they wore the same cap-badge as the others.

Come to think of it, I'm guessing that apart from some rabbis (I think about 15 or so served during WW1) there weren't any other non-christian religions represented in the ACD, although when I consider the number of Hindu and Muslim troops in the commonwealth forces (not to mention Taoists, etc in the Chinese Labour Corps), there must have been demand for them. I'd love to hear an authoritative opinion on this.

Sorry, don't mean to hijack the thread, just pointing out that there was more than 1 ACD cap-badge during WW1.

[Sepoy]

Headgardener is correct that Jewish Chaplain's in the British Army wore a seperate cap badge. They still do!

Here is a scan of a WW1 Jewish Chaplain's Officers' Service Dress Bronze cap badge with blade fittings. Shame it is slightly corroded!

Sepoy

[Sepoy]

Here are a pair of pin backed Army Chaplains Department OSD Bronze collar badges, which are the same design of the cap badge but slightly smaller.

Sepoy

[Audax]

WWI Jewish Chaplains badge

[headgardener]

I don't know if that badge is yours, but it has to be incrdeibly rare; I'm pretty sure that there were only about 15 Jewish CF's during WW1. If we extrapolate from that, there were probably no more than about 30 or so from WW1 to WW2 inclusive.

Any idea why this badge differs from the one posted by Sepoy (the one without the crown)? I've got a photo (don't have it in front of me, I'm afraid) of an unnamed Jewish CF in France in about 1917 and I'm pretty sure he was wearing Sepoy's version.

Any thoughts about CF's of other denominations? Were there any?

[Audax]

JEWISH CHAPLAINS SERVING IN THE (BRITISH)ARMY CHAPLAINS’ DEPARTMENT 1914-1918

Rev Michael Adler DSO, Senior Chaplain 1909 as a Territorial Officer – sent to France in January

1915 France

Rev. Arthur Barnett 30 March 1916 France

Rev. I Brodie 8 January 1918 France

Rev. L Falk 25 January 1918 Palestine

Rev. I Frankenthal 11 June 1916 ?

Rev. J Geffen 21 August 1917 France

Rev. M Gallop 26 March 1917 Salonika

Rev. N Goldston 4 February 1918 (Home Service)

Rev. D Hirsch 14 August 1917 France

Rev. W Levin 27 October 1918 Italy, Egypt, Palestine

Rev. N. Levine 9 July 1918 France

Rev. E Levy June 1917 France

Rev. B Lieberman 16 January 1917 France

Rev. S Lipson 22 January 1915 (Home service)

Rev. L Morris 22 January 1915 France, Italy

Rev. H Price 23 October 1917 France

Rev. V Simmons 24 August 1915 France

[headgardener]

OK, so I said 15. I was 2 out........

Audax, that's a great list, and it may help me to identify my chaplain (see my previous post). Did that come from the Jewish Roll of Service? Any ideas as to where I might find photos of any of these men?

[Audax]

Most of the info came from either the Army List or Michael Adler's book British Jewry Book of Honour 1914 - 18

[Raster Scanning]

I don't know if that badge is yours, but it has to be incrdeibly rare; I'm pretty sure that there were only about 15 Jewish CF's during WW1. If we extrapolate from that, there were probably no more than about 30 or so from WW1 to WW2 inclusive.

Any idea why this badge differs from the one posted by Sepoy (the one without the crown)? I've got a photo (don't have it in front of me, I'm afraid) of an unnamed Jewish CF in France in about 1917 and I'm pretty sure he was wearing Sepoy's version.

Any thoughts about CF's of other denominations? Were there any?

The one with a crown was Australian I think.

[Audax]

Chaplains were apppointed by the Secretary of State for War on the recommendation of representives of the following denominations:

1. Church of England

2. Presbyterian Churches - Church of Scotland, United Free Church of Scotland, Presbyterian Church of Ireland, Presbyterian Church of England

3. Roman Catholic

4. Wesleyan

5. Baptist, Congregationlist, United Methodists and Primitive Methodists all under the authority of the 'United Board'

6. Welsh Calvanistic Methodist

7. Jewish

8. Salvation Army.

I make that 14 different denominations.

A

[mattgibbs]

The first pictured badge was introduced in 1930 to the RAChD. There is a write up in their journal which I have a copy of, by the serving chaplain general. The opportunity to design a similar Jewish version of the badge with the wreath was not taken until 1939, it would seem it was simply overlooked.

The WW1 version was designed by the current Senior Jewish Chaplain to the Forces. He was still acting in that capacity at the start of WW2 when he wrote to the WO to highlight the oversight, and enclosed a design. The initial design is missing from the file, but a reply memo is extant, and a second sketch of what became the 'new' version.

The memos reveal that the WO and the CG's office could find no trace of any official acceptance of the WW1 Jewish badge design! It may be possible that the Senior Jewish chaplain got it ok'd by the CG and went ahead on his own? 2nd time around they got an official prototype made by Gaunts and a sealed pattern!

Very interested in the list of denominations approved in WW1. I can see now why there was a need for post war re-org!!

Incidentally it mentions in The Army Chaplain by Middleton Brumwell that there was only 1 Jewish chaplain inter-war, increased to 3 in 1939. I'm not sure that his "1" includes Michael Adler as Senior Jewish Chaplain though, because he was also the senior jewish chaplain to the RAF [and Navy?], and I seem to recall another name being quoted elsewhere, but I cannot recall who. With the massive reduction in the army and the very small percentage of jews serving in it interwar the rest must have been demobilised. Were they honorary, or given emergency commissions does anyone know?

Regards

Matt

[maven]

Interestingly the list of British Army Jewish Chaplains posted by Audax includes my relatiive V. (Vivian) Simmons. Fortunately I was old enough to have known him. After the war he officiated at a West London "Temple" (he was Reform). His first posting during the war was at Mont des Cats.

[Deborah Nobbs]

Hi

I am researching the memorials in the Royal Garrison Church of All Saints, Aldershot and I am researching into the Chaplains who served and (some) gave their lives in the line of duty.

 

One Chaplain listed is Reverend David Michael Guthrie, who was a Benedictine Monk at Farnborough Abbey.

 

Does anyone have any more information on this Padre and pictures?

 

Thanks.

 

Debbie 

[DavidOwen]

4 minutes ago, Deborah Nobbs said:

Hi

I am researching the memorials in the Royal Garrison Church of All Saints, Aldershot and I am researching into the Chaplains who served and (some) gave their lives in the line of duty.

 

One Chaplain listed is Reverend David Michael Guthrie, who was a Benedictine Monk at Farnborough Abbey.

 

Does anyone have any more information on this Padre and pictures?

 

Thanks.

 

Debbie 

Debbie

 

Welcome to the Forum

 

His Officer service file is available to view at Kew National Archives https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1133406. As it is not digitised you either need to visit the archive or arrange for a researcher to copy the file for you (Don't ask the Archives to do it they will charge you a lot. There are a number of independent researchers available. The one I use can be as little as £4.50 for the file depending on how many pages there are in it). Don't expect too much from the file though as they have been heavily weeded but do often contain useful information and things like signatures etc.

 

Good luck with your research

 

David

[DavidOwen]

Lives of the First World War has at least one picture of him FMP link here You can view his Medal Index Card for free on Ancestry here (Ancestry have miss-indexed his middle name). 

This tells us he first went to France on 8-11-1916 and Died of Wounds on 21-11-1916.